Been making spirits for over 20 years and recently beer too.
It's all first class and for about 1/6 the cost of buying it.
It's a load of fun and a massive cost cutter, if anyone is interested I'd be happy to share or answer questions.
Interested in making beer or spirits?
Bargainstalker on 26/11/2023 - 09:51
Last edited 26/11/2023 - 11:18 by 1 other user
Last edited 26/11/2023 - 11:18 by 1 other user
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Howdy, only tried brewing beer and cider. I stayed clear of spirits as I'm sure I would turn myself blind :D
I picked up https://leagueofbrewers.co.nz/rapt-pill-hydrometer-thermomet… and am yet to use it, anyone else use it?
General questions;
1. If you buy those malt extract cans, do you use the yeast that comes with it? Or do you buy different yeast packets?
2. What is your CO2 setup? Do you just prime your bottles, or do you use added CO2 and yeast extraction?
3. What are your favourite brew?For me;
1. I use cans, I've tried both the yeast the comes with it and single purchase dry yeast.
2. I just prime bottles.
3. Black Rock Riwaka Pale Ale turned out great.
I have a Taproom Peach To Their Own IPA waiting to be brewed.
I also am getting ready to do a RUSSIAN IMPERIAL STOUT.
1 × Stout (1.7kg)
1 × Dark Ale (1.7kg)
1 × Lager (1.7kg)
1 × Dextrose (1kg)It gets a very active fermentation, it has a longer shelf life than other beers and think it would be interesting to brew.
Hi, I'm a former professional brewer and homebrewer. Never distilled though. Just adding to this thread:
Here are my top tips for improving homebrew beer:
- Hygiene is extremely important after the boil (or everywhere if you don't boil)
- Control your fermentation temperature. Most homebrew off flavors come from the fermentation
- Use good yeast. Generally this means throwing away the one under the cap of the kit tin. If you are brewing a high strength beer then use two (or more) packets
- Don't use sugar (except in some situations like big beers or beer you are intending to be extremely dry). Yes using malt extract will cost more but the result will have much better body and flavour.
Thanks for your insight.
I used 2x ipa cans for my last brew and it was the best one ive done.
What are your thoughts on dextrose over plain white sugar?Yeasts, there are so many to pick from, is there a general all purpose one you stick with? Is there a really good guide you can recommend?
I use starsan on everything, and keep a spray bottle handy. I'm thinking to get a big plastic tub to move things out of the kitchen, splash too much water around using kitchen sink
Temperature, i have a $17 fridge off trademe with a heatpad (not touching brew) and thermal controlled.
I find that the fridge never turns on, and its just the heatpad cycling. I wonder if perhaps an insulated grow tent would work just as well in nz climate (garage brew) something like https://herbals.co.nz/products/eclipse-grow-tents-60-x-60-x-…Dextrose will give you a better flavour profile than sucrose - Sucrose will give you a more cider like flavour.
I've found no evidence to suggest using sucrose over dextrose leading to a cider character, though it is often stated in forums. Just avoid using high proportions of either as you'll start to get off flavours due to lack of amino acids which malt normally provides.
The Fermentis US05 is a great neutral ale yeast, it will be good for most styles. Other brands have the equivalent. Look for something like"West Coast Ale", "American Ale". Lagers or British Ales will do better with a more specific yeast, then other styles like Belgians, Bavarian Wheat etc are exemplified by their specific yeast strains. But if you are into brewing those you've probably already done a bit of research.
Starsan is great. Remember hygiene is a two stage process. Cleaning then sanitizing. No use sanitizing something that hasn't been cleaned properly. Microbes can form "fortresses" and the inside can avoid the sanitizer. For homebrew I would just use hot water with dishwasher powder, and plenty of scrubbing.
Sounds like you have temperature control mostly sorted. Fridge is great, not sure why it wouldn't be cycling on though as fermentation generates heat which must be moved away if the temperature is to remain constant. Something to look into. Are you taking the temperature of the beer, or the air in the fridge? You should be measuring the temperature of the beer and driving the heating/cooling off that. You don't need to keep the temperature ultra precise, just make sure it doesn't run away at the start of fermentation into the 20s and 30s. And you don't want it to drop too much or the yeast might not finish their job.
Hope that helps
Very helpful thanks. Lots of good info.
Im brewing in the garage, i wonder if the temp never "runs away" due to cooler environment. Im not very agressive on the heat profile, so a few degrees below perfect temp, heater kicks in until 2 degrees above. Longer for fridge as it needs to "spin up" the cold.
I measure in the brew using a stainless steel insert to keepnit all air tight. The rapt pill will give me a good indication of temp since its truely submerged in it. Allows to account for tube variations?Cleaning, yes, i use a non-rinse cleaner, then starsan. I avoid scrubbing too much as i dont want to scour the fermentor.
Ive got a scrub mummy that i might switch to.When you say higher portions, are you suggesting say 500g dextrose, 500g sugar? If it suggests 1kg sugar?
Next question, is there much difference in pitching yeast directly (at right temps) vs activating first?
Great chat this 👏
@Foodie: If you have your temp probe in a pocket in the fermenter then that's great (assuming the level of the beer is in contact with it). I think you're okay.
Re scrubbing and damaging the vessel, yes that's a risk which can end up harbouring microbes, use your judgement.
Regarding sugar, i can't really give a rule of thumb but let's say if you are using over 25% of your fermentables as sugar then you might start to have problems with amino acid deficiencies which will affect the growth of yeast and therefore you'll start to get off flavours due to yeast stress. I really don't know what that limit is though, I didn't use much sugar as I like body and flavour in my beer!
Fermentis (yeast manufacturer) did a great study on dry yeast pitching rates and activation several years ago. Basically it showed the benefits of pre hydration were overblown. Not to say there aren't benefits though. But you do add in an extra risk of contamination if you hydrate. I'd say just pitch directly.
Don't worry about the "moonshine can turn you blind" myth.
I've been bottle fermenting to carbonate.
Been doing experiments to see if I need a keg and soda stream bottle to carbonate.
Last batch I clarified in 3 ways. Cold crashing. Finings. And lastly a 1 micron filter for the most yeasty bottom third.
And it bottle fermented just fine.
Black rock lager threw away the yeast and used mangrove jacks lager yeast.
Not going to buy the keg and accessories it was extremely good beer super clear nice taste and fizzy.Nice, was sediment reduced in bottle? Or completely eliminated?
Wow. Way to spread some very poor advice.
No myth. Methanol blinds people. All the time. Ask the various tourist in Thailand and Bali who have lost their vision.
It's not hard to remove the methanol (it's the first X ml of the distil). But you sure as shit need to remove it.
STC-1000 Temperature Controller - Aquarays https://aquarays.co.nz/product/stc-1000-temperature-controll…
Recently bought this its brilliant, keeps the fermenter within 0.2 of a degree of what it's set to it was only $30.
They are everywhere very popular you will find a better price if you lookNice, i got the inkbird version.
I use the following to get it into the brew.
https://www.brewshop.co.nz/thermowell-ss-brewtech.html?sku=t…Looks good, I've got the temp controller on a 30 w heat belt around the fermenter. Been controlling it manually for years using emergency blankets to insulate the fermenter. What a hassle, but no more with the stc 1000 temp controller
The brew crashing in the fridge now has 0.5 kg of malt sugar and the 0.5 kg of white sugar I caramelized. Let you know how that turns out.
Hi,
Love to know where to start
Wanting to make bourbon - like a Jim beam or a whiskey like Jack Daniels
Also a vodka just standard
What’s the best setup to get for a beginner?
ThanksReflux stills are the modern way of making spirits.
They make an extremely high quality neautral spirit. Then you add whatever flavouring you want.
Essencia Walkers whisky is a favourite, it tastes just like johnny walker black label.
Theres 100's and 1000's of different spirit flavourings available
Check out reflux stills. The spirit gives you no hangovers because they are so good at removing any methanol from the ethanol
Ideal!. These are very popular. And 25 ltr is a great size, your wash can be up to 20% alcohol so 1 run will produce about 12 ltrs of 40% alc of finished product. Though it comes out at over 90% you water it down to whatever you like, I like 40%. Anything over 50% is just fire water and not enjoyable to drink
Once you've made the investment of your still and fermenter etc. I make 1 ltr of 40% neutral spirit for $3.70
Can drink it as vodka as is but there's an endless supply of ideas you can do with it. Such as infusing it with your favourite fresh fruit. You can buy charred oak spirals that age it just like a barrel only much faster because of the large surface area. Just a couple of examplesBanana, feijoa, vanilla paste, cinnamon quills, pears, are some of the thing's I've infused.
But the 100's of spirit flavourings available is the standard way of flavouring neutral spiritSo do you just chuck everything in the bottom, turn it on, come back and collect the spirit?
Or do you still have to do head assessments, etc etc. To separate out the different outputs?
Or is it still a fermenting process where it has different stages. eg. low heat for weeks, then high heat to evaporate the different levels of spirits?
You mix up sugar water and yeast in the plastic barrel fermenter.
Once fermented you transfer to your still and run it. For 25 ltr you discard the first 50 ml because it has most of the methanol its called heads. The rest of the run is all good alcohol until the end when you get a film of oil on whats coming out. These are called tails.
The last process is carbon filtering. Different filters are available, this just makes the spirit 100% tasteless and odorless.
Then you've got beautiful neutral spiritI use 48 hr turbo yeast its very popular because it can produce a 21% alcohol wash. Though when you max it to 21% it takes longer probably 7 - 8 days
Great to read all the questions and answers, if we order the still what else do we need to get started?
You need your still your fermenter barrel with tap and airlock. An alcometer. A carbon filter, I use a refillable filter and buy z carbon and finishing carbon but there are plug and play disposable filters. Then your flavourings and bottles are last. You can probably source spirit bottles for free if you raid your neighbours recycling bins ha
I would recommend the stc 1000 temperature controller and a heat belt for your fermenter. But I've got by without it for 20 years. So thats up to you
It's mostly very low cost equipment except for the still. But a stainless steel still virtually lasts forever, there are copper and alloy stills but they concern me as traces of copper and aluminum is rumored to contribute causing altsheimers. Can't go wrong with stainless steel
The video i posted suggested that copper is beneficial to remove (sic) some sulphates that are bad. Is this nothing to worry about?
Also, filtering, I presume you want as little yeast in your still?
Copper can be beneficial in a traditional pot still and it is used on some reflux stills. But you don't need to have copper on a reflux still everything except ethanol and water gets removed anyway.
It is beneficial to remove the yeast although some stills it makes zero difference. Theres a product called turbo clear that's great for settling yeast just like finings do for beer. There's also a beer filter with a 1 micron filter that I use to remove yeast on the spirit wash. It makes no difference to whats produced except at the end of the run I get a little more produce before the oily tails come out. Its probably not worth the bother to be honestCopper is also very soft and easily dented and damaged. I prefer stainless steel if your buying a still it will be 304 grade ss which is food grade. But if your making or having a still made for you it must be from 304 food grade stainless steel
Another factor with copper it will absorb sulphates but then you need to clean the sulphates off the copper. Stainless never needs cleaning except for a wipe or the standard soak in sterilizer if it's for fermentation
But dont u want to remove those sulphates? And stainless will not remove them? Or does carbon filter resolve that?
Wouldn't mind getting into this but not sure I have the space and tbh I tried someone's Rum that they had made a few years back and it was horrific even though they were convinced it was amazing (after doing this for many years already). It had no depth to the flavour and was just alcoholic burn with no real substance. Just puts me off going down this path; as I figured/assumed there has to be more to it than just throwing some flavour syrup in alcohol.
Fair enough. Some people "decide" their spirit is excellent. Where others are objective open minded and never stop improving and experimeting.
A lot of the spirit flavourings I've tried weren't good so yes you need to find good ones.
The alcoholic burn can be from having the % too high. Also there are other ways to improve and smooth spirit. Such as charred oak spirals and there is also aging syrup. But the best way I've found is by doing the carbon filtering as slow as possible.
1 to 2 drops per second is recommended. I filter mine at 1 drop per 6 seconds usually. A batch I filtered at 1 drop per 15 seconds was incredible
If you make a spirit you dont enjoy you can put in in with your next wash and re distill it with your next run and gain all the alcohol back.
Researching what rum, whiskey, bourbon other distillers recommend will save time and moneyI can and have emptied the packing from the reflux tower and ran it as a pot still. Hooked up with a wine maker and distilled a couple of batches of his wine it was great fun and interesting. We made some unique delicious spirits from his wine
I get what ypur saying. Making neutral spirit and pouring a flavour in sounds boring no art or talent required like making a bottle of soda stream. And likely thats how your associate made his rum. But there is art talent and experience involved just in the flavouring process. Educate yourself on tasting spirit, there are 7 flavour profiles sweet salty bitter etc and you use different parts of your tongue to taste for each. You might find a rum that does well in 5 of the 7 and different rum that makes the missing 2 and combine them in a ratio that makes a full bodied flavour. Oak aging with charred oak adds complex subtle flavours like caramel and vanilla etc. Theres different oaks and different levels of char and it's up to your palate how aged you like it. Flavouring can be very interesting challenging and rewarding. Especially when you make a delicious rum that shows your mate how it's done. The other processes, fermentation, distilling and carbon filtering also involve art skill talent and experience to make first class neutral spirit.
Check out this kegmenter it can be used for carbonating beer and can also buy a reflux head and use it for making neautral spirit. Can also have a traditional pot still head for making spirits from scratch. It's a good price and fits in my smaller fridge. I was looking at it for beer but im doing great with bottle carbonation.
It is now on sale for $175
Brewshop has xmas daily specials starting from tomorrow
Thanks great tip. Will be watching the kegmenter for a deal.
Bottled a lion light ale 3 days ago paknsave $13 and got a coopers lager in the fermenter paknsave $16 with caramelized white sugar.
The experiment is to see how good these cheap beer kits can be.
Next experiment is 2 identical batches with the only variable being the standard yeast vs mangrove jacks lager yeast.Nice, waiting for 27L fermzilla v3 to be on special. Tri-clamp is much nicer than threaded!
Watching daily also, will keep posting.
How much do you drink?
Dont forget to reply to comments so notifications get sent?
I do like the fermzillas except for the shape and size for cold crashing (fitting in the fridge) which has shown impressive results for both spirit wash and beer at clarifying by settling yeast. Not sure how much I drink is relevant ha, but fair enough might be interesting :)
Next brewshop deal is 4x 500ml stellarsan for $40
Nz pilsner recipy book, meh
Just starting to look into this, is it worth buying a T500 starter set with condenser, boiler etc for around $700-800?
What else comes in the kit?
https://nzbrewingsupplies.co.nz/products/kit-still-spirits-t… is $520
Or https://nzbrewingsupplies.co.nz/products/kit-still-spirits-t…Or you looking at https://nzbrewingsupplies.co.nz/products/kit-still-spirits-c… ?
One run will make enough for around 12 ltrs of 40% spirit which would cost you … to buy from a bottle shop. So it only takes your 2nd run and your saving $$ a great investment. But still shop around for the best deal foodie is on the ball
Did you get a T500? I'm moving to aussie in 2 months and need to sell my T500 and all the bits that go with it.
https://www.brewshop.co.nz/kegmenter-29l-with-ball-lock-cap.…
The 29 ltr kegmenter I want is $175 down from $299, awesomeTempted, but feel a fermzilla v3 would suit my needs better. Even though i have v2…
Im keen on the pot still head for it too so can make a traditional whiskey from a favourite beer
Fair enough fermzillas are awesome. I would recommend trying cold crashing a beer the clarifying is outstanding. Its why I like the 29l kegmenter over a fermzilla it fits in my fridge perfectly. Maybe ferment in a fermzilla and rack into a kegmenter for cold crashing? Just an idea
Fermzilla fits in my brew fridge fortunately, but I get what you are saying.
How long do you crash for? and do you do it as cold as you can?
I use finings and drop 5 bottles of 600ml frozen water in there then into the fridge. Without the frozen water bottles it takes around 24 hours to get down to temp but the frozen bottles brings it down in hours. Ive had great super clear beer in 3 days and others its taken 5. Different yeasts flock better than others. I shine a torch at the fermenter point blank to see how clear the beer is. I would say colder is better but honestly 6 or 7 degrees seems to do the same job as 2 degrees.
M10 sell a garden thermometer that has a probe so you get 2 temperatures one from the thermometer and one from the probe, very usefullSo you dont allow some bottle fermentation for in the bottle?
My plan would be to try crashing in fermenter then bottle, but that would result in flat beer in bottle im guessing.
Excellent question and no it bottle ferments sweet as. Check this experiment out. I cold crash it with finings it's beautifully clear, then i rack it by syphoning off the top half then 1 micron filter the bottom half (it removes all yeast).
Clean the fermenter and put the beer back in to mix the bottle fermentation sugar and bottle it. I had no idea if it would bottle ferment or if it might take longer. But no! It was fizzy enough in 12 days and full done in 14. Absolutely delicious! You wouldn't know its home brew, no yeast flavour at all and clear as a bell. There's a tiny bit of yeast sediment in the bottom of the bottles. So theres still enough yeast to be activated and bottle carbonate. Total success and i wont do it any other way nowThis is the washable reusable 1 micron filter
https://www.brewshop.co.nz/beer-filtering-system.html
On special too I paid $75 for mine.
So yes you can clarify beer in 3 ways cold crashing + finings + partial filtering and it bottle ferments nicely. Really stunning beer too, once anyone tries it they wont go back. Please give it a goYou need 3/8 tubing for the filter it's not included
There's a 25 ltr water container with tap at bunnings. Im going to get one for cold crashing because its square and will only take up 1/3 of the fridge, where the standard 30 ltr round fermenter takes up 2/3. Plus while a brew is crashing in the water container can get another brew in the fermenter. If anyone has the missus or flatmates complaining about taking up 2/3 of the fridge that could save you some grief :)
Fortunately its my dedicated $17.50 fermenting fridge off trademe. So no issues with that 😀
That's a great idea, some very hot days use a mist gun to mist the fermenter or ice cubes on top or both which works. Spirit wash it doesn't matter too much because flavour doesn't matter but beer its important to keep it cool for flavour so I've read. The last brew the yeast had a huge range 18 - 32 deg so i set the controller to 22 deg. Ive read cooler is better but have no experience from experiments such as fermentation at the minimum temp or close to it to see if the flavour is better. But curious about that for sure
Yeah, I've always used 22-24 as my temp ranges for ales.
Lagers are a bit lower but I guess its yeast dependent.@Foodie: Oh dam i just checked the mangrove jacks bavarian lager yeast for an experiment. Its 8 to 14 C .
No chance of keeping it that cool this time of year without a brewing fridge.
Thanks for the advice or I wouldn't have checked@Bargainstalker: If you lack temperature control you'd be better using a clean American Ale yeast in your lagers. It won't be the same as a lager yeast fermented properly but it will give better results than a lager yeast fermented hot.
Thanks. I have a temperature controller and heat belt but not cooling, the controller does have a cooling circuit to run a fridge though. I did use one mangrove jacks lager that was 18 to 21 degrees. And the coopers lager from paknsave could also handle 22 degrees, it's something to watch for and didn't know some lager yeasts require such low temps, thanks for that advice. Plus a cheap fridge from trademe is also a great idea, cheers!
Just keep in mind that you need to account for windup time for the fridges compressor to start working.
Generally heat is "instant".So I set tighter cooling tolerances to control this.
I think I know what you mean. Set the heating to 0.1 degree tolerance and it was clicking on and off too rapidly. 0.2 degrees tolerance works well.
Caramelized a whole kg of white sugar for the coopers lager about ready to bottle. Smells and tastes great the only drawback is the beer is dark like an ale, no biggie though would prefer it looking like a lager
Have been using mangrove jacks gelatin finings for beer. $2.15 for 5 grams. Bought clear and unflavored gelatin from paknsave $6 for 125grams today. Im all in for top quality but also all for reducing cost when it doesn't reduce quality
Let me know ur experience
Sampling the lion light ale from paknsave $13. Actually quite nice. Didn't smell great when I mixed it but much better after being fermented when bottling it. And nice to drink but prefer lager. Also found the range for the coopers lager 21- 27C so set the temp controller to 22C
Not buying the 29ltr kegmenter because the thrice clarified bottle carbonated beer is so awesome.
Also caramelising white sugar pairs beatifully with the hops and malt flavours. A fantastic way of adding extra flavour.
It's a bit of an art. When the sugar goes frothy its about to start caramelizing and you need to watch it like a hawk. There's about 10 seconds between light caramel another 10 for medium and another 10 for dark/ burnt caramel. A little water stops the caramelizing process instantly but be carefull of spittingIf you burn the caramel you've only lost a kg of sugar and lesson learned. And re spitting, its just like frying bacon you don't do it naked! Lol.
For obvious reasonsHave just read caramelized sugar can have almost half the calories.
So more is needed. Almost certainly depends how caramelized it is. Great if anyone has more info about that.
Though very happy to add more caramel the flavour is delicious I don't know how much moreInteresting, how is it to integrate into brew? Do you just melt it down with boiling water?
Yes, after caramelizing just add loads of water to the fry pan put the heat back on to dissolve the caramel and add to the fermenter.
But now i know theres less calories in caramelized sugar (I read 56% but no mention of how heavily caramelized) will go with 1.5 kg instead of the recommended 1kg of white sugarIf your element is on too low the sugar will dry out and start crystalysing with little or no caramel flavour or colour. It's all good just add a little water and have another go with the element set a bit higher. And if you have it too high and burn it, just tip it down the sink and try again
My element goes to ten and set on 6 is the sweet spot for caramel if that helps
Induction?
Old type ring element large size. With a stainless steel frypan. But i only do 1/2 kg at a time. So will switch to a large ss pot and do it all at once. Going to caramelize 1.5 kg next time
Bought 2 of the 500g dark cane sugar. Was initially thinking of adding 1 but 2 will give a better result to how it affects flavour.
Also the brew crashing in the fridge now has paknsave gelatin instead of mangrove jacks gelatin finings. It looked exactly the same when dissolving it and adding it. But in a few days how well it works will be interestingIf you wanted to private message me your address I've got a couple of things to post you
:O
You would need to enable PM's
Looks ok. And the beer I've got crashing looks very clear. So standard gelatin is as good as there's nothing special about "gelatin finings" that I can tell
5 grams dissolved in half a cup of warm water and stir into the beer well. Are the instructions.
I do this after fermentation is complete and then put it in the fridge for cold crashing, I would like to see how well it works on it's own without cold crashingUnscented unflavored gelatin works perfectly for beer finings.
The datk cane sugar is really delicious but 1 kg adds too much colour to a lager. 300g is about right.
Caramelized white sugar can have as little as 56% of the calories are my latest findingsWow, didnt realise it would drop calories simply buy caramelizing.
I got a 500g dark cane sugar in pantry waiting.
Me neither I was actually googling the dark cane sugar calories, which are exactly the same as white sugar. But it's great caramelized white sugar has less calories because it means extra can be added and it adds such great colour and flavour
Now ill share some info.
Been made from a reflux still so it's very pure ethanol.
The carbon filtering instructions are 100 grams and 1 - 2 drops per second.
I go to the extreme of 240 grams and 1 drop every 10 seconds.
Super slow filtering this way actually gives the alcohol a faintly sweet smell. Hopefully you can notice it.
The charred oak spiral does the same thing as barrel aging just much faster because of all the surface area.
That is half a spiral enough fo 5 ltrs so quite concentrated in that 710 ml bottle, tasty in beer or whisky or rum, even some wines.
There are a number of things i do with neutral spirit.
Drink as vodka with a mixer.
Lift the proof of my beer usually by 1%.
The most delicious thing ever was infusing sliced feijoas for 2 days. It was incredible but did go brown on day 5. Luckily there wasn't much left.
Bananas are terrible they go brown in 30 mins and soak in half the alcohol.
Plums were great and it lasted near a month in the fridge.Just tried as a mixer, very smooth, no sharp alcohol taste, slightly fruity?
It would be dangerous in orange juice
Got a bag of nectarines nearly ripe. Going to put them through a juicer I expect that at about 25 - 30 % alc will be irresistible. Glad your buds picked up on the smoothness
Hard not to :D
Will try the oak one after first bottle gone.
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Good thread on Geekzone too
https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=192