Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern pleads with Kiwis to stop buying things overseas.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/03/prime-min…
Jacinda Ardern pleads with Kiwis to stop buying things overseas.
kiwijunglist on 31/03/2020 - 07:22
Comments
Oh wow do people really need to be told? Surely they can easily shut this down.
How? It would be impossible to stop every overseas merchant from shipping to New Zealand. They can't hold stuff at the border. Storage issue and they would have no idea what items are essential anyway.
I must be dumb. Why is this so bad/wrong anyway?
Is it because the couriers are really busy? Well, from what I have heard some courier companies have stood staff down because of the lack of business. They are not running flat out.
Is it because it's taking business away from local businesses? I can't see that either.
I don't get it.
I think they might be trying to limit the courier deliveries to essential items to reduce the amount of exposure couriers have to other people. A point they should remember though is that goods arriving in NZ now would have been ordered weeks before the lockdown.
Plus, it is hardly difficult for couriers to deliver in a safe way.
The problem stems from over-reaction, and the false belief that even one death is too many. If that were true, we would move all government spending to Pharmac, and happily spend NZ$1 billion to save a single life.
Yes we seem to be getting a few mixed messages because as from yesterday dozens of retailers are allowed to trade online which will mean Hundreds of thousands of courier parcels in the mail for so-called essential items.
@pdevonporf: This really frustrates me…
You can buy a computer from PBTech as it's "essential" but I can't buy a hard drive to keep my computer running, I have to buy a whole new "essential" computer.How is sending me a computer more safe than sending me a hard drive.
If it's to limit employees required to send, just use the same # of employees and just have delayed shipping from warehouse.
Contactless courier deliveries are easy to accomplish and it is being done safely every day.
There is still capacity in the network.
All it would take is one infected courier driver, they could then infect dozens or even hundreds of others. Don't forget that you are infectious before symptoms, and some people are infected but show no symptoms at all.
Couriers are just dropping the packages at the door, knocking and leaving - they aren't interacting with anyone (at least the one that came to us didn't).
If required, it would be trivial for them to wear gloves and a mask to stop them spreading anything (maybe they are - I could not tell as I did not even see them).
If the recipient was really worried, they could always wipe down the package(s) with disinfectant too.
None of it is difficult.
Alan.
I've been spraying my Hello Fresh boxes with Oust, which says on the back of the canister kills Human Coronavirus. Hahaha
@L3tstaxth1s: Don't
forget tospray each of the ingredients after you unwrap them :-)Maybe what Oust means, is that it will kill the human host, and thereby take out any coronavirus hosted by that human!
Alan.
They will need to do something as we are only in the first week and businesses here are at a disadvantage.
FYI I recently brought some stuff from AliExpress, using the "AliExpress standard shipping" option. Shipping took 12 days (Ordered 8 April, received 20 April). The order includes masks if you're interested. If you use any other shipping option it make take longer.
I haven't bought masks myself - the risk of catching something from a mask that is damp after fifteen minutes seems quite high, but I have others here who are desperately scared to go outside without them.
What masks did you buy, and are you 'happy' with them / would you recommend them? If so, can you post a link to AE?
Thanks,
Alan.
I already have a 3M 7500 half face respirator and 6035 filters from a previous paint project, so I'm better prepared. This plus a pair of safety goggles is my supermarket setup - This is also similar to the US CDC field setup for their "disease detectives". I spray myself with a 75% alcohol solution (Mitre 10 sells isopropyl alcohol) before getting back into the car.
Now since I expect Jacinda will be successful in eliminating COVID inside NZ, I don't expect I'll need such a heavy duty setup. So here's what I brought:
1x Smartmi mask (If you know Xiaomi phones, they also have a homeware store in China in collaboration with decent quality manufacturers, and this is one of their products)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000846768949.htmlAnd I combine the mask with a lightweight face shield
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000738419033.htmlIf you're in a higher risk situation (e.g. supermarket worker, bus driver etc.) I would suggest you get at least 15 N95/KN95 masks, cut one up to see if it's legit (lots of fakes out there), number the rest from 1-14 and use number 1 on the first day, number 2 in the 2nd day…..number 14 on the 14th day. Since the virus can't survive more than a few days on a mask (and up to 7-10 days on smooth surfaces like steel/plastic), by the 15th day the number 1 mask would've been 'naturally' disinfected through time. If you're even more paranoid, get a UVC germicidal light bulb or even a benchtop oven, and set it to 70c. Don't use alcohol as it can damage the fabric.
When you cut one up, you're looking for a layer of melt-blown fabric. As long as there's one, you should be fine. Note that while the melt-blown fabric is somewhat easy to make, they're very difficult to make to N95 spec. So unless you're buying through inter-government procurement channels right now chances are you're not getting true N95 spec, BUT that should be OK as long as you're not going into a very high risk environment (e.g. Hospital ICU with COVID patients coughing their hearts out). With that fabric chances are you'll still getting 80-85% protection, and that should be enough for most workplaces.
Finally with regards to valved vs. non-valved N95/KN95s. The valve makes breathing easier, and they're easier to reuse as they ain't covered in your own gunk after a long day. However since the air you breathe out isn't filtered, if you for some strange reason get infected you'll breathe out the virus to everyone around you. So if you're going to use a valved N95/KN95, wear a surgical mask on top of it.
Thanks!
@Alan6984: If there is an aerosoled viral load that you need a n95 or respirator you'll also need a disposable gown and a hat and you'll need to take these off in the correct order. You'll also need to dispose of all the groceries you just bought as well.
@kiwijunglist: Well, as I said above, I am not wearing a mask - it seems like a breeding ground for all sorts of things, so I probably won't be disposing of my groceries either.
You go for it though if you are worried.
Alan.
@Alan6984: That should be @avantime.
I don't advocate warning a respirator or n95 mask for grocery shopping.
Gloves don't add anything over washing your hands.
@kiwijunglist: Hi kiwijunglist,
I was responding to your comment immediately above mine that ended with you noting the need to dispose of all the groceries you'd bought.
As I said up top, I am not wearing a mask as I don't believe they will help much, but if you are that concerned that you would consider throwing out groceries, then that's your call.
Alan.
@kiwijunglist: Germany & Austria are making masks mandatory when out and about; Spain & France are handing them out. More European nations will most likely follow suit. The US CDC recently changed their tune about cloth masks.
Japan, which had its first case in January and had mysterious unexplained transmission since has kept the case trajectory somewhat low, and did not suffer the fate of Italy despite its population being even older. Mask culture may explain that (there's no social distancing with people packed like sardines in trains) but it's only 50-80%, due in part to complacency and acute shortages of masks - this may explain why cases are starting to creep up after a few months.
In Hong Kong people queued up in their thousands to buy masks back in January, and COVID has been mostly under control there despite the city's sheer urban density, making it impossible to socially distance when going out. What's more interesting however is that the incidences of flu also dropped significantly after January. Note we in NZ are about to enter flu season shortly, and both COVID and flu will coincide if the elimination strategy fails.
In South Korea (another mask society) transmission was mostly limited to the Shincheonji 'church', which bans face masks in their hours-long 'bible-study' sessions. The other major cluster was the Guro call centre, which also didn't wear masks.
With respiratory droplets any barrier on the face, no matter how thin, will stop some droplets from getting out infecting others, as well as contaminating surfaces. if everyone wears a mask then most of the outward respiratory droplets will be stopped. If everyone's wearing N95/KN95 masks (production is massively ramping up, as demand falls with waves subsiding) then virtually all of the outward respiratory droplets will be stopped.
@Avantime: Masks in public are to stop you giving it to other people, you don't need a full face respirator or n95 to go shopping.
@kiwijunglist: Surgical masks in public are to stop you giving to other people. N95s however are both to stop you from getting it (assuming you take precautions when fitting & wearing) and giving it to other people. This is why they're so valuable in hospitals - but as production ramp up massively and the wave subsides, most people in NZ will be able to afford a reusable supply of these masks.
I expect the mass use of masks, especially N95/KN95s will be the prerequisite in how public events, sporting matches, as well as airline travel will restart. If the virus can't get out, it can't infect others or contaminate surfaces.
@kiwijunglist: The medical consensus is that the major mode of transmission is through respiratory droplets, not aerosol virus. Aerosol virus occurs generally during intubation with a ventilator, or during resuscitation.
So unless you're high risk location like a hospital ICU, the only probable pathway of infection is through breathing in infected droplets, not aerosol virus. In which case a mask, as well as googles/face shield will add protection. Care in fitting the mask, as well as removing the mask & clothing will be crucial, but if everyone wears one (esp. N95/KN95) and socially distance themselves (no going to restaurants/bars) then the risk drops massively.
There's also the issue of viral load. When you breathe in large amounts of virus you're putting yourself at much greater risk of death, which may explain why some young doctors and nurses are dying of COVID. You're far more likely to get a big dose of SARS-Cov-2 if you have no protection & directly breathe in someone else's droplets, than to get infected when removing the mask. If you have underlying health conditions and/or obese, this may mean life or death.
A well fitted mask also makes you more aware of not touching your face, and be more aware of the COVID threat as you move about. However note if one is stupid and/or reckless however, the opposite happens. Think about condoms - HIV/AIDS really prompted their use despite some pushback, and safe sex is now mandatory is most circumstances.
@Avantime: I am a doctor in the hospital
N95 shouldn't be needed for routine community public use.
You advocated in your first post that people should wear n95 in high risk situations eg. supermarket worker. This is not required.
And I explained that if n95 was required it would also be a requirement to wear full gown, hat, overshoes, face shield, gloves. You also then need to dispose of all these items after contact with one person, performing a decontamination of the hand or glove during each step of removing the ppe and discarding all other items or having them also cleaned properly.
A droplet style mask worn in the community (eg surgical mask) will have a benefit in reducing transmission to others if that individual has an asymptotic contagious respiratory infection spread by droplets.
I agree with some of your other points.
@kiwijunglist: Maybe it's considered overkill in NZ with the elimination strategy, but I would say that more protection is always better, especially if it's available. Chemist Warehouse are now selling N95 masks at $10 a pop, so no shortages for HCWs here. I also recommend a face shield, and they're easy to find online.
And I recommend this for high risk workers (e.g. supermarkets, public transport, rest homes, meat processing) because they're getting smashed hard in the US, where they're considered essential workers but are clearly not being adequately looked after by their employers; If you're aware of disputes with Talleys/Affco and NZBus, you would know what we're talking about over here. They comprise mostly from lower-income minority/immigrant communities, with higher risks of comorbidities (e.g. higher rates of obesity in Pasifika communities) as well as a higher proportion of multi-generation households, and cultures which discourages social distancing. Lack of access to healthcare may also be an issue for immigrants. And looking at Singapore and the poor treatment of their migrant labour communities, it's obvious that COVID has a way of seeping through the underprivileged and forgotten communities undetected.
As for PPE use I'm aware of additional PPE requirements in hospital settings, but there's also a major heightening of risk for HCWs vs other high risk essential workers - People go to hospitals and clinics when they're sick, but they stay away from work or unnecessary trips when they're sick. Since significant viral shedding starts when the infected start to show symptoms, HCWs require a much higher level of protection. IMO as long as the government isn't mandating masks for everyone, a pack of N95s will retain their value for those essential workers as long as they also practice adequate hygiene, donning and handling procedures, as well as being proactive in disinfecting their respective work areas.
Ideally the world will make billions of N95 masks everyday, at a price affordable to everyone as a daily consumable item. This plus mass testing/contact tracing/isolation, effective therapeutics and public vigilance will help us reduce social distancing requirements, so more marginal activities (cinemas, sports matches, church services, airline travel) can be made viable again, subject to their own PPE requirements & capacity restrictions.
@Avantime: You can buy legit kn95's(chinese spec n95's) from aliexpress for <$1.50 each last I checked. Shipping time is the only downside and I would expect 3-4 weeks.
Do you know where I can get that mask Liam Neeson wore in Batman Begins? I want to look badass so that peeps will stay at least 2 metres away from me at all times.
Has anyone had recent experiences (good or bad) with shipping orders from the US to NZ? NZ is not on the US Postal Service's current country ban list, but I'm curious to know what the current wait times are likely to be? Thanks.
I also read Stuff reporting that Amazon US has stopped shipping to NZ - has this been confirmed?