New House: Traditional Heatpump + Heaters in Rooms OR Pellet Fire/Fire in Lounge + Heat Transfer Unit OR Any Other Options?

mickey9876 on 23/09/2024 - 07:04

Building new house in Chch so winters can get fairly cold. Trying not to go too over board as this might be our home for about 5 years and then probably will move to Nelson or somewhere warmer for work.
Lounge is around 120m2 and total 175m2 4 bedroom home. Only the master bedroom and smaller 10m2 office room will be used mostly so other 2 bedrooms might just remain as guest rooms and maybe future baby room, don’t know.

Only thing we know for sure is to get a ventilation system mainly balanced pressure unit heat exchanger but when it comes to overall heating solutions- getting a bit overwhelmed with options out there.

Solar not sure if ROI will be good if living here for just 5 years.

Options we are aware of:
-Traditional Heatpump in lounge and oil heaters in bedrooms
-Pellet fire in lounge + heat transfer unit
-Ducted Heatpump seems like a hit and miss depending who you ask so not really considering this option

General Discussion

Comments

  • FiveFeetUnder on 23/09/2024 - 08:10
    +2

    The benefits of the Heat Pumps is that they do cooling as well as heating. If it was me, I would put in Heat Pumps in the Lounge, Master and Office.

    If it was a forever home I would be doing a Ducted Heatpump with Ventilation such as Mitsubishi Lossnay.

  • ace310 on 23/09/2024 - 08:53

    Go with heatpumps. If you can do Ducted well and good. Maybe even multi split heatpumps where you have one outdoor unit with multiple splits inside. You can do multiple of multi-split depending on which gets used more or depending on the location.

    oil heaters are not efficient and absolutely no-no for kids rooms. Pellet fire you only get heat and heat transfer units are bit of a waste and doesn't work reliably.

    Heat pumps are the best way to go if you can afford initial cost. Central heatpumps with zones or something that way also works depending on how you utilize them.

    • In2thewild on 24/09/2024 - 13:57
      +2

      What is wrong with Oil heaters in kids rooms?

    • MrCheapie on 29/09/2024 - 08:22

      Why do you think oil heaters are a no no in kids rooms? Is it due to them being hot to touch or something else?

      • ace310 on 29/09/2024 - 11:02

        Few things :
        It is hot to touch so if kids run around in the room could be dangerous.
        Oil heaters have chances of getting toppled and risky if you have dense carpet.
        Some of the brands emit a weird smell, which some kids don't like or lets say they don't sleep well(friends experience)

  • Alan6984 on 23/09/2024 - 09:59

    Whilst I have never lived in the South Island, if it can get really cold (not sure what they might actually mean in terms of temperatures), I would consider having some means of heating that will work if the power is off for an extended period.

    Your suggestion of a pellet fire would cover that, although I have no idea why you would (or would not) want to go with a pellet fire rather than logs (maybe somehow pellets are cheaper), but I would guess logs would burn for far longer than pellets? Also, driving around Auckland at least, you often see 'free firewood' at the side of the road, so it feels like you could use that for heating for (next to) nothing perhaps?

    • FiveFeetUnder on 23/09/2024 - 11:29

      I think most Pellet fires require electricity? Most of Chch has emissions restrictions on Wood fires so you need to get a ULEB Fireplace

      • Alan6984 on 23/09/2024 - 21:42

        I think most Pellet fires require electricity

        I had no idea - I figured it was just wood pellets, and you stuff some lint / paper in there, and start it with a lighter :-)

    • scott on 23/09/2024 - 16:53

      Pellet fires are significantly automated (they can start themselves), so that is a big advantage.

    • mickey9876 on 24/09/2024 - 09:08

      Canterbury usually have good electricity

  • blurtie on 23/09/2024 - 11:34

    How timely.. We're currently in the (very early) stages of building in Chch also. Have only touched on heating briefly with our architects - who were keen on underfloor heating solutions, but personally I'm more keen to go with a ducted heat pump with ventilation - as it does both heating and cooling but I also like the idea of being able to go for a consistent whole house temperature.. Although reading on various forums, it can be quite difficult to achieve.

    This is also not our forever home, but even if it was to be a rental or sold down the line - I think it would still be seen as added value to the house? Dunno, maybe it's just me. Have lived in far too many homes where you only heat the room you're in..

    What are the insulation levels like in your house? We're trying to max out ours and building with 140mm external walls with RAB - so that it's fairly air tight. Architect has said at our levels of insultation we wouldn't need ducts to all rooms?? Heating/cooling could be managed by leaving doors opened/closed and they didn't think there would be much heat loss overnight if the room didn't have a dedicated duct/heating element. Hopefully this also brings the costs down for using the system.

    • mickey9876 on 24/09/2024 - 08:28

      We are most likely going with the H1 standards and whatever that is required. Wasn’t planning on asking for anything extra. They already have pretty good specs with thermal break double glazing etc right

      What brand and model are you leaning towards for Heatpump and ventilation?
      How many bedrooms is your new house and all your rooms are going to be in use or some spares?

      • blurtie on 24/09/2024 - 10:27

        We've got a smaller house - approx 120m2 in total area. 3 bedrooms - large open plan kitchen/dining/living. All rooms probably be in use - although may have a bedroom set up as a guest and keep the kids together..

        Been looking into Misti/Daiken, leaning more towards the misti, but haven't yet committed to anything yet.

  • scott on 23/09/2024 - 15:51

    Pellet fire is for looking pretty. But is going to cost more to buy, fuel (like at least 3x), an maintain, and be a heap more effort to boot. If you are willing to give that up, you will do better with electric heating.

    On running costs, heat pumps win hands down. And have the bonus

    If you are going for a balanced pressure ventilation system, you will be able to share a decent chunk of components with a ducted heat pump system, so this option is definitely worth looking into. Most of the negative feedback on ducted heat pumps comes from people with systems that lack zonal control. If you go this route get something with zonal control.

    Given it is a new build, you could consider hydronic underfloor heating (fed by an air to water heat pump). Ultimate in winter luxury. (but they either can't cool, or only gently to avoid condensation.

    For my house (which is poorly designed thermally, and the upstairs bedrooms get super hot), I have just added 4x High wall (individual split units) to each of the bedrooms and the office, in additon to the big heat pump in the lounge. Worked out quite a bit cheaper than retrofitting a ducted heatpump for upstairs, and no duct losses should be good for efficiency.

    The retrofit was a chore. Would recommend some kind of heat pump in at least the study and master when you build…

    • mickey9876 on 24/09/2024 - 09:07

      If this was our forever home then could consider under floor but probably just need the most value for money options this time but the hydronic stuff look cool!

      • scott on 25/09/2024 - 13:29

        Yeah, Air to Air heat pumps either high wall / floor console or ducted is your value for money option (both capex and running costs).

        I would get some quotes and use actual figure's to make your decision.

        For us ducted (with zonal control), was going to work out quite a bit more expensive than high walls. I think ducted would have been better (largely because the system is hidden), but could not justify the extra cost. So we now have high walls all over the place.

  • mickey9876 on 24/09/2024 - 04:31

    Thanks, so far most recommend ducted Heatpump with ventilation.

    How does this option compare to multi split option VS one main unit in lounge and one small unit each in two most used rooms(so 3in total)?

    Factors to consider-
    -Not our forever home but at least 5 years but this should only mean we wouldn’t go all out under floor and solar, everything else open ti recommendations
    -Was seriously considering getting ventilation system balanced pressure ones but do we need this if we already get a ducted Heatpump system? Would both complement each other or ducted system enough?

    • ace310 on 24/09/2024 - 08:44

      Considering this is not your forever home, just go with combo of Multi split for rooms & a single unit for lounge. Highly recommend Mitsubishi or Daikin. Though would definitely put one split in each room if you can. Main benefit would be concealed wiring & ducts which does help with overall look & feel, plus down the road can be seen as added value.

      • mickey9876 on 24/09/2024 - 09:06

        Thanks, we are used to Mitsubishi and their wifi app is great.
        So if I understood correctly from reading about different systems here- https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/heatpump/c/7661/omnico…

        You are referring to these ones right?
        Would you recommend installing units in all bedrooms or just the most used ones?
        Also, would this be a good example where you are safer to go with a bigger sized motor in order to prevent over working the main unit?
        Trying to figure out what will be and best sized outdoor option and how many extra indoor units.

        • scott on 25/09/2024 - 15:22
          +1

          To give some idea of costs, we wanted heat pumps for our three upstairs bedrooms, primally for summer cooling (heat tends to drift up the stairs, so winter heating needs are low. The quotes were done by Happy Air in Auckland in June (cheapest of three quotes), and were for fairly complex installs (long refrigerant pipe runs through roof spaces etc.):

          [multi-split] Mitsubish MXZ-2F52VF Multi outdoor unit supply and install 3x Mitsubish AP20 with built-in wifi 2.5kw High wall heat pump supply and install: $9073.50

          [Ducted with zonal control] Mitsubish PEAD71 8kw Ducted heat pump supply and install, Includes 3x supply vents and 1 return vent, Air Touch 5 zone control system with remote thermostat sensors for 3x zones and 8 inch touch screen tablet with wifi: $12408.50 inc (of which $3335 was the zonal control system)

          [individual spits] 3x individual Mitsubish AP25 3.2kw built in wifi High wall heat pump supply and install: $7417.50 inc

          For context, the house already has a ~8 year old, large (~8kW) heat pump in the lounge, While I am not a huge fan of it, I don't really want to replace it until it dies). Master bedroom is on the ground floor, layout means it would not have been possible to get ducts from the second floor roof space to it, but it could have been part of a multisplit system.

          Ultimatly went the individual split route. Means there is 5x outdoor units (4x Misti AP25, 1x Panasonic) outdoor units scattered around our house, but our site layout means this is not a huge deal…

          Really wanted / needed Aircon in our office / our bedroom (currently living upstairs to be nearer out child, and our master bedroom acts as a playroom / guest bedroom).

          The timing lined up with a bathroom renovation, when a wall was open, and the only time it was viable to get an unit into my child's bedroom, so we actioned that one. Then it felt wrong to have a air con in every room except the master bedroom (it's downstairs and has less issues with heat), and that one was a simple back to back install, so we one their also.

          Typically (in summer) we will have our office air con running during the day, and just our bedroom running during the night.

          Initially it looked (I as comparing quotes between mispatched vendors and brands), that a multisplit was going to come out a lot cheaper than 3x individual splits, but I was concerned our operational pattern (only running 1x indoor unit for most of the time) was not going to fit well with that approach, as there are limits as to how low the large outdoor unit inverter can turn down. So I was very happy when individual splits turned out to be cheaper.

          One advantage of the bigger units is that anything over ~5kW normally has wiring back to the switchboard included in the price, and the little units get tapped into the back of power outlets. I played a chunk on top of the above prices to get the wiring sorted how I wanted it.

        • ace310 on 25/09/2024 - 15:30

          Below ones I got installed in 3 bedrooms upstairs. Get multiple quotes and see what everyone recommends.

          3 * MSZ AP 25 VGKD indoor
          MXZ 3F54 VGD Outdoor
          Total : $8300 with installation.

          • mickey9876 on 28/09/2024 - 02:03

            @ace310: AP25 strong enough for lounge? I thought usually the lounge living unit is 6kw+

            • ace310 on 28/09/2024 - 06:15

              @mickey9876: Probably Not, but depends on the size. If you have open plan kitchen and lounge than you need higher capacity. Installer should be able to recommend it.

              • mickey9876 on 28/09/2024 - 10:18

                @ace310: Cool so multi split units with one outdoor unit can still have 2-3 different sized indoor units?

                • ace310 on 28/09/2024 - 11:32

                  @mickey9876: I think so yes.

                • scott on 30/09/2024 - 13:46

                  @mickey9876: Yes.

                  Mitsubishi has a points system. the outdoor unit of ace310 can support 2 - 3 indoor units. Each up to class 50, with the sum up to class 100.

                  So that outdoor unit could support two AP25's plus an AP50.

                  https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/heatpump/c/7661/omnico…

                  • mickey9876 on 01/10/2024 - 08:08

                    @scott: This is awesome, I somehow missed this page when researching Mitsis. I didn't know that you can have outdoor units hooked up to 'non omnicore' units! On that page, they say you can have the same outdoor unit hooked up to their hypercore units as well which is pretty cool.

                    Someone mentioned here that splits maynot be efficient as separate 3 back to backs so just trying to do some research on that at the moment.

            • scott on 30/09/2024 - 13:39

              @mickey9876: We AP25's have them in our bedrooms & office.

              Our lounge unit is over 3x the capacity.

              Might be able to work if the lounge was very small and well insulated.

              But if there is any chance the house is going to be a rental at some point, it is important to make sure the lounge heatpump is at least the minimum sized from the rental calculators.

              • mickey9876 on 01/10/2024 - 07:51

                @scott: Good point, if we are forced to keep it in the future and if it becomes a rental, may as well make sure healthy homes complaint from the get go

    • desikiwi on 29/09/2024 - 15:23

      for multi split the cost is more to instal them as you need to put higher new wire + circuit + need to pipe copper and other things to each blower which also needs condensation piping out so on , its lot easier to install single mini splits , and it can also borrow power from nearby circuit as 2 kw to 3.2kw can work easily with 10 amps wire , + you can swap unit in future for any fault easily , also maintance is easier .

      daikin and ME and MHI and others will last long ie easily over 12 years or so but do also think about cheaper units from Haier and Midea and they come with 5 year warranty , as they are lot cheaper to buy .

      you can also put ductless energy recovery systems like https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/ventilation/c/10296/si… there are som e other European companies as well . they are good as in you can easily change filters clean the unit so on

      • mickey9876 on 30/09/2024 - 09:33

        So do you recommend multi split option if it is a new build?
        Probably looking to go with Mitsubishi as their app is nice
        Lossnay or similair balanced pressure system is a must - was looking at Smooth Air option which is made locally in Canterbury.

        • ace310 on 30/09/2024 - 10:01

          If you want to make your own wifi module for Mitsubishi and save around $150+/unit, have a look below. Only applicable if you are going to use Homeassistant.

          https://github.com/geoffdavis/esphome-mitsubishiheatpump
          https://www.cheapies.nz/node/45593
          https://github.com/gysmo38/mitsubishi2MQTT
          https://www.reddit.com/r/homeassistant/comments/17fiomm/mits…

          • mickey9876 on 30/09/2024 - 12:28

            @ace310: Thanks for that ace! So if we go for the one outdoor and multiple in door units, I'm little confused as if they all come with separate remotes and separate wifi units on the app?
            Confused because I thought the multi units cannot be used one for heating and one for cooling if they all have the one outdoor unit.

            • ace310 on 30/09/2024 - 12:32

              @mickey9876: Yes. remote & wifi for each indoor unit. You can't control outdoor unit. And yes, it can either be heating or cooling. So it's ideal to have lounge separate & bedrooms on one outdoor unit.

              • mickey9876 on 30/09/2024 - 12:36

                @ace310: Thanks, so does the ducted system can have different temps for different rooms?

                • ace310 on 30/09/2024 - 12:41

                  @mickey9876: I haven't used ducted so can't be sure. But mostly you can have diff temps, only it would be either heating or cooling.

                  • mickey9876 on 30/09/2024 - 12:44

                    @ace310: I mean I was thinking if ducting has the adavantage of having cooling in lounge and heating in the rooms - if not, maybe might just stick with which options works out cost effective/value for money overall for the house.

                • scott on 30/09/2024 - 13:48

                  @mickey9876: Ducted can have temperature control for each room, but it is about a $2500 add on.

                  It just ended up cheaper for us to go individual spits for our upstairs rooms, so we went that route.

                  But if you are going to have balanced pressure ventilation, that could work well with a ducted system.

                  • mickey9876 on 01/10/2024 - 08:05

                    @scott: Waiting for some pricing at the moment, once we know the pricing, we can do a cost-benefit analysis..

        • desikiwi on 30/09/2024 - 17:39

          Midea app is best imo which you don't have to use you can also use home assistant with it as well multi split is expensive to put in as it will be expensive to put in ie labour due to copper piping wiring , multi split is good if you have problems or limited with outdoor unit space . Back to back installs are easy to service swap and it has a very high acop 5.2 on Daikin arlia/ ( it also has air purification function), and acop 4.8 on midea , multi split is less efficient, , you can use seperate me lossnay ductless units which can run 24 hrs , this will also easy to service change filter etc .

          That said a ducted unit with lossnay will be expensive 🫰 but will be great as well as the entire house will have clean fresh air and also air conditioned

          • mickey9876 on 01/10/2024 - 07:54

            @desikiwi: Concerned about your remarks on multi split being expensive to install and less efficient than back to back units for each rooms.
            Could you please confirm or explain bit more? Others have recommended split or ducting but duct is fairly expensive so was thinking about split system.

            We aren’t super technical so not sure home assistant may be possible.

            • desikiwi on 01/10/2024 - 21:54

              @mickey9876: you need to budget this budget is for energy management, its better to use Highly efficient single mini splits , if the unit price is lower its even better as long as its a major brand Midea and Haier are Major brands,
              Efficiency of Heat pump is on ACOP or COP but ACOP is better to consider , example i got my Midea mini split for 640 nzd it has ACOP of 4.8 , i could had also got Daikin which is at ACOP of 5.2 but its for 1300 , Mideas multi split ac ACOP is 3.2 its similar for other brands it also needs new heavy gauge electrical connections , Plus copper routing and work from multi split is expensive from all hvac technicians compared to single mini split ac , + it needs electrical work to be done as well , where as its easy for mini split to just borrow electrical connection from a regular 10 amp outlet , its also easy to service and maintain and swap mini split acs , .

              I also strongly suggest going for hot water heat pump , its super cheap and super efficient and gets along well with PV ,

              HOme assistant is like a operating system which does all home automation tasks , but its not necessary you can use amazon and google and use all controls on it . like say echo turn on ac on this so on , you can automate tasks on the app and also use Night Sleep curve which imo is excellent only midea and samsung has this in NZ , LG also has but acs are not available in nz .

              I am going to spend my extra money which i have saved from going with say midea or not going ducted or multi split in my case to this money and use it for solar pv system and will be doing a cash job for that as well but my house is very easy to put in a PV , like north facing has space to put in 12kw pv panels on a 10kw inverter , iron roof , 15 Deg inclination only etc, i didnt pull the plug as tesla launched power wall 3 and i may just wait for 2 more years as there is also new panel tech coming up soon and then i will do that with power wall 3 ,.

  • kiwijunglist on 24/09/2024 - 07:06

    Parents have ducted heat pump, lots of condensation on duct when run as Aircon and the condensation is like a water pipe leaking so they can't actually use it. (New build a few years ago,).

    • FiveFeetUnder on 24/09/2024 - 08:08
      +1

      Yeah that isn't normal. They should get someone who knows what they are doing to fix it

      • kiwijunglist on 24/09/2024 - 12:06

        Yes they had some one in but i believe it still has the problem. I live in a different part of the country so I'm not involved however i would be very upset and get it fixed as sometimes the house gets a bit hot at night in summer (chch) when we visit.

    • mickey9876 on 24/09/2024 - 08:25

      Wow, anyone else experience this?

    • ace310 on 24/09/2024 - 08:48

      Absolutely not normal. Get it checked asap, if there is a slow leak can be more trouble down the road. Plus, don't miss out on the warranty period if you are still within one.

      I had 2 of my single outdoor Haier(came with house and won't recommend them at all) units fail almost on the brink of warranty and got both replaced free of charge. One of them got replaced twice including once the indoor unit as well.

    • desikiwi on 01/10/2024 - 21:59

      i think the HVAC is not put in properly , all Heat and cool transfer unit generate water and this is pumped out with a pump if longer distance or set up as no easy water dump

  • metz on 24/09/2024 - 08:15

    Be careful of free fire wood…it is often tanalised so burning treated wood(copper arsinate) is toxic especially if anyone has asthma.

    • mickey9876 on 24/09/2024 - 09:06

      Thanks, probably going to stick with electricity this time!

  • rkl on 25/09/2024 - 15:41

    We put in a ducted in our old place, and it was brilliant.
    Single story home, so easier to manage. But the wrap arond warmth was awesome to come home too.
    New place has high wall, and really dont like the more in your face air warmth. So will be going ducted again.
    Only thing we will add in now is zoning, but this is more of a long term home for us so the extra cost is worth it.
    The old place was much smaller, do didnt really need zoning and this worked fine.

  • desikiwi on 27/09/2024 - 15:46

    Fire place feels the best among everything else , if you have access to free renewable wood +wet back for hot water .

    Ducted heat pumps for newer house. After 1980 i think is good i work in ko house as support worker they have all ducted Haier heatpump they are super comfortable and work well .

    For my own house which is 70 year old after doing lot of research and understanding of HVAC i went for mini splits for each individual room and large lounge heatpump as i calculated all the connected open spaces .i went with midea as it's a known Chinese brand my family is Chinese, and the price was good 640 NZD for 2kw, and 1000 NZD got 7kw heat 6kh cool i did cash job by electrician for about 700 NZD each inclusive, wall mounted on brackets+ rcbo new circuit with new wires 2.5 mm for 2kw , 4mm for 7kw units , i also changed panel to rcbo for entire house which was extra cost .

    Midea app is excellent it's very extensive compared to japanese brands example i use sleep curve every night it's just amazing you can automate the ac depending on your local outside weather conditions or use ac with pv solar , it also integrates with home assistance, Amazon and Google

  • nevergofullretail on 27/09/2024 - 15:52

    getting a house built for for someone at the moment.
    getting heatpump lounge, and heatpump master bed, the other rooms hardly used so they can have portable heaters.

    • mickey9876 on 01/10/2024 - 08:04

      Master bed heatpump - is it split system or separate back to back install? @nevergofullretail

      • nevergofullretail on 01/10/2024 - 09:20

        Separate

      • ace310 on 01/10/2024 - 11:51

        Ideally lounge should always be separate than bedrooms and mostly they will be unless you have central aircon/zone support.

        For lounge you need higher capacity and not for bedrooms. Secondly, the working time for both are different. One works in Day time mostly while other in Night. Multi are more efficient if you have more than 1 unit being used simultaneously. It will be very in-efficient to have higher capacity multi outdoor unit connected to lounge & bedroom, when you will only be using bedroom split in night.

        Think of combining the rooms within a multi unit which would run together like bedrooms in night. Lounge in day. That way you have ideal load on the outdoor unit with maximum efficiency.

        • mickey9876 on 01/10/2024 - 12:52

          So one of the companies advised that multi units aren't the most efficient and cost-wise, they do not have much advantage over separate back to back installations.
          So we are trying to get some pricing for the back to backs for main bedrooms and one for lounge.
          This also gives the ability to use heat/cold and various other combination of uses. (for eg, only lounge and main bedroom can be used during weekends etc if needed)

  • nzmax on 27/09/2024 - 23:48

    If you have a cheap or free source of wood that isn't just old building material, an ULEB could be a good option. Will produce a lot of heat and nothing beats a fire and the ambience it has on a cold winter day.

  • tacobaron on 30/09/2024 - 09:17

    We've got a 220sqm house in Selwyn, 6 years old now. Insulation and double glazing does fantastic work. Two heat pumps and a fire place. I thought we were going to freeze when we moved down from AKL. However we basically don't run the heat pumps in winter, the fire is by far the first choice for heating. The heat and ambience is just a delight. Only issue is it doesn't spread around the house that well, but that's fine for keeping the bedrooms not cold but not overly warm. Lounge is a damn sauna if you want it to be.

    Running the heat pump from 5am or something is a nice luxury if you want to wake up toasty.

    Heat pumps for cooling in summer though! Even with great insulation, the sun here is no joke.

    Wish we had ducted heating though, could circulate the fire heat better and cool the bedrooms in the summer evening better. Our neighbour has it and I love it.

    • mickey9876 on 30/09/2024 - 09:31

      If you have fire, definitely recommended to get at least a heat transfer system.

      • tacobaron on 30/09/2024 - 09:50

        Yeah I think it's something we'll look at. Just hasn't really caused any issues and with interest rates going so high, borrowing money to get one put in hasn't been a go. It would round out our heating/cooling situation for sure though I agree.

        Any recommendations? I've heard mixed things about HRV

        • scott on 30/09/2024 - 13:51

          HRV is known for positive pressure ventilation system's fan sucking air from the roofspace into the rooms.

          A heat transfer system is a insulated duct with fan that takes heat from near the ceiling of the room with the fire in it, and blows it to somewhere near the bedrooms.

        • FiveFeetUnder on 30/09/2024 - 14:04

          SmartVent do a heat transfer system. They are usually well regarded.

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